Riots in the Capitol Building

Manibrandr Soundworks

Emerald Subscriber
The cop died protecting people and our democracy, but to put it pragmatic terms you'll understand, had the Trump rioters managed to kill or incapacitate just one senator, the Democratic agenda and minority rights legislation would have been significantly derailed. When other cops were busy taking selfies and dismantling barricades for rioters to come on into Capitol Hill, that cop did his duty and died because of it.

That deserves some respect.
Ok, you're spreading misinfo. They fell back because they got overwhelmed, and in that process a cop got crushed to death. The guy that pulled aggro wasn't the one that got killed. Secondly, the selfies thing? That's fawning, that's a survival tactic when you're taken hostage. It sucks that the cop died, in much the same way it sucks that any single person died, but let's not kid ourselves here. There are no heroics, just tragedy.
The point is that someone who joined a group of racists and pedophiles criticizing me about wanting to take direct action against insurrectionist in the Capitol and other far right terrorist entities is too much for me.

She can stay in her lane.
You do realize how many of the most passionate antifascists used to be a part of that group, do you? Most of them do not speak of it for a number of reasons, but I have been very open about my past for one simple reason. It draws out the parasitic moral narcissists like yourself who, just like those AltFur groups, feed off of grievance in order to farm social capital. You don't care about the marginalized communities, for whom lies the very reason we fight against cop brutality, you only care about looking like the hero, and now you, self-styled emperor, your clothes are gone.
 
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Manibrandr Soundworks

Emerald Subscriber
we do not have a democracy! we have never had a democracy! Any attempts at creating one in a settler-colonial state will be one in name only!

Get the fuck out of here with that shit. You admitted to not only still being a conservative, but also previously belonging to the republican party--you have more in common with the rioters than you do with us.
Him telling me to stay in my lane really confirms to me one very interesting thing; That he would much rather stab me to death in order to get me out of the way of him enjoying the social order in which he is king, than to work with people and abolish the kyriarchical systems that bind us.
 

M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
Get the fuck out of here with that shit. You admitted to not only still being a conservative, but also previously belonging to the republican party--you have more in common with the rioters than you do with us.
I still am a conservative, but I've always been supportive of other minorities' rights and I have voted that way consistently. I have worked within the party towards minority goals as much as I could in addition to belonging to organizations like the Human Rights Campaign, Planned Parenthood, and City Harvest. I've argued against fascists and Trumpism in and out of the fandom, online and offline for the last five years. Not every POC is leftist, but that doesn't make us bigots either and we certainly don't support the insurrection on Capitol Hill.
we do not have a democracy! we have never had a democracy! Any attempts at creating one in a settler-colonial state will be one in name only!
I would agree somewhat, but I don't think you're going say that four more years of Trump is better than four years of Biden and Democrats being in power and repairing the damage done to the country.
 

Manibrandr Soundworks

Emerald Subscriber
I most definitely didn't hook with the Altfurs either, so there is a world of difference between me and @Manibrandr Soundworks .
You know, considering how the leaders of those groups constantly erase their chat history, and there are no links that tie you anywhere else outside of this site, we have no way of actually confirming this. And with how often you've hammered on this point as if it's a gotcha, I am beginning to doubt your claim that you've never been involved in those groups either.

I've only ever had my own past weaponized against me as an argument tactic by Altfurs and Raiders once I've left them behind, how do I know you're any different? You HAVE said a lot of pretty sus things during your stay here.
 

M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
Ok, you're spreading misinfo. They fell back because they got overwhelmed, and in that process a cop got crushed to death. The guy that pulled aggro wasn't the one that got killed. Secondly, the selfies thing? That's fawning, that's a survival tactic when you're taken hostage. It sucks that the cop died, in much the same way it sucks that any single person died, but let's not kid ourselves here. There are no heroics, just tragedy.
I think that the cop who was with other the cops trying to hold to the line to protect the lawmakers that ultimately support you and got crushed to death to death as result is a hero, unlike the cop who was cowed into taking a selfie with the insurrectionists who tried to overthrow our government. The latter guy should be fired because if you sign up for a job where the motto is "protect and serve" and falter due to your life being in danger, the people don't need you in that job.
You do realize how many of the most passionate antifascists used to be a part of that group, do you? Most of them do not speak of it for a number of reasons, but I have been very open about my past for one simple reason. It draws out the parasitic moral narcissists like yourself who, just like those AltFur groups, feed off of grievance in order to farm social capital. You don't care about the marginalized communities, for whom lies the very reason we fight against cop brutality, you only care about looking like the hero, and now you, self-styled emperor, your clothes are gone.
I care about police brutality; I just realize we need government solutions to problems stemming from the government. Stripping blanket immunity for police officers, having civilian review board do oversight of police departments, and actively increasing diversity in police department leadership roles rather just the lower ranks is how we need to combat it.

That said, we have a major problem with right-wing extremism in this country at the moment and some would accurately point out that we have always had that problem. Right-wing terrorist groups are the number one killers domestically of Americans and a lot of those deaths are minorities like ourselves.

Deplatforming needs to be done undoubtedly, but there needs to be a permanent state apparatus dedicated to aggressively identifying and neutralizing these groups before they can harm people. We had a plot just last year where extremists were planning to kidnap and kill not one, but two sitting Democratic governors. There has been a concerted by Trump administration to frustrate FBI and to lesser extent DHS efforts to step up efforts to foil far-right extremist groups.

I'm for respecting civil liberties, but I think there need to be efforts by activists and the lawmakers they boost to put in legislative rail-guards against abuse of the system we use to go after extremists.
 

Venthas

Community Administrator
Community Admin
Ok, this has gotten a bit off topic. As a reminder, personal attacks and/or flaming are against FLO's ToS. I'm leaving this topic open for now, as the attack on the US Capitol is an important and historical event. However, further personal attacks or flaming will see this thread closed.
 
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M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
I didn't appreciate you labeling my view "the whitest thing" I could do.

That I'm sorry for discrediting your experience with these groups and by extension you. I also apologize for any distraction my arguing with you caused when we should be discussing solutions and thinking of the victims.

That's on me.
 

M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
Ok, this has gotten a bit off topic. As a reminder, personal attacks and/or flaming are against FLO's ToS. I'm leaving this topic open for now, as the attack on the US Capitol is an important and historical event. However, further personal attacks or flaming will see this thread closed.
I take full responsibility and I apologize again.
 

Manibrandr Soundworks

Emerald Subscriber
I will maintain that calling for government monitoring of its own citizens is too dangerous of a game to be pursued. Always assume that anything that you weaponize against the enemy will be used against you. The reason why I call the more reactionary measures the whitest thing is because from my observation, there is a strong overlap between cultures touched by settler colonialism and them strongly favouring punitive justice over other forms of justice. I am strongly against punitive justice, and I strongly favour restorative and corrective justice. Any measures that will be taken to stop these cultists has to be with containment and the safety of those potentially affected in mind, not with the goal of punishing them. Punishment breeds resentment, something that is already in excess with these folks.

Deplatforming and prosecution works as a form of containing the threat.
 
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M1L35 M4R54L15

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I will maintain that calling for government monitoring of its own citizens is too dangerous of a game to be pursued. Always assume that anything that you weaponize against the enemy will be used against you. The reason why I call the more reactionary measures the whitest thing is because from my observation, there is a strong overlap between cultures touched by settler colonialism and them strongly favouring punitive justice over other forms of justice. I am strongly against punitive justice, and I strongly favour restorative and corrective justice. Any measures that will be taken to stop these cultists has to be with containment and the safety of those potentially affected in mind, not with the goal of punishing them. Punishment breeds resentment, something that is already in excess with these folks.
I can agree with most of that, though I would say this is reminder that we need more actively engaged in our government to ensure those priorities moving forward.
 

Manibrandr Soundworks

Emerald Subscriber
I can agree with most of that, though I would say this is reminder that we need more actively engaged in our government to ensure those priorities moving forward.
That may be a good idea, but grassroots movements that directly involve the people and the shaping of its culture should be a top priority. A nation is nothing without its people, and a nation that is free is a nation whose people are more concerned with helping each other than getting theirs at any cost.
 
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M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
That may be a good idea, but grassroots movements that directly involve the people and the shaping of its culture should be a top priority. A nation is nothing without its people, and a nation that is free is a nation whose people are more concerned with helping each other than getting theirs at any cost.
That I can wholly agree with.
 

M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
The FBI's job suddenly became way easier :


(Side note : 'Parler' is a french verb that means 'to speak'.)
The "Verified Citizen" dynamic and the deleted data collected will be useful for solidifying prosecutions and getting convictions as well as for mapping out who belongs to the threat groups involved and even groups that could be planning imminent violence.
 
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Punishment breeds resentment, something that is already in excess with these folks.
As cliche as it sounds, to the point that I might as well be echoing what you just said, having
basicallly Draco's paradise is far beyond idealistic. Anything punitive will always, from a human standpoint, just incite but a defensive resentment. The thing about hate is that it doesn't have the moral inhibitions that love does, and doing said punitive actions will only give them more ideas, or the need to escalate it further

A nation is nothing without its people, and a nation that is free is a nation whose people are more concerned with helping each other than getting theirs at any cost.

If it's going to be by the people for the people and of the people, it's going to have to be from the people. It's coming from the bottom, but it'll have to be so if the will of said people are to prevail

Notwithstanding the fact that I know a certain group of higher up people known as politicians who stand to benefit from hate and division of the people, at best a distraction from their basically unethical acts (who's watching them when the watch is watching each other instead, out of divisive paranoia?), at worst a group of supporters to be weaponised for their own ends, as the main topic of this thread has provided a good example of

- Xi Yao
 

Manibrandr Soundworks

Emerald Subscriber
As cliche as it sounds, to the point that I might as well be echoing what you just said, having
basicallly Draco's paradise is far beyond idealistic. Anything punitive will always, from a human standpoint, just incite but a defensive resentment. The thing about hate is that it doesn't have the moral inhibitions that love does, and doing said punitive actions will only give them more ideas, or the need to escalate it further
Exactly, while I do concede that at some point, we would have to curtail the rights of those who have been proven beyond reasonable doubt to have committed heinous crimes, I feel that too often, extreme punitive action seems to be the first thing people instinctively call for as soon as they see a crime happen.

If it's going to be by the people for the people and of the people, it's going to have to be from the people. It's coming from the bottom, but it'll have to be so if the will of said people are to prevail

Notwithstanding the fact that I know a certain group of higher up people known as politicians who stand to benefit from hate and division of the people, at best a distraction from their basically unethical acts (who's watching them when the watch is watching each other instead, out of divisive paranoia?), at worst a group of supporters to be weaponised for their own ends, as the main topic of this thread has provided a good example of
Exactly, mutual aid and social outreach will bring us together to dissolve any division with each other. This is something Trump supporters lack
 
Exactly, while I do concede that at some point, we would have to curtail the rights of those who have been proven beyond reasonable doubt to have committed heinous crimes, I feel that too often, extreme punitive action seems to be the first thing people instinctively call for as soon as they see a crime happen.
The true purpose of punishment is to correct, not to inflict needless harm and pain, it's why the 8th Amendment exists ("Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"). Curtailing/putting restrictions is done out of need rather than want as it's the only way to contain their harm - I mean if they didn't, we wouldn't be restricting it, wouldn't we? It's why punitive acts could be done out of lust for needles harm and pain, or at least seen as so by those affected by it.

Exactly, mutual aid and social outreach will bring us together to dissolve any division with each other. This is something Trump supporters lack

"Alone we can do so little, together we can do so much" - Hellen Keller
 
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M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
Exactly, while I do concede that at some point, we would have to curtail the rights of those who have been proven beyond reasonable doubt to have committed heinous crimes, I feel that too often, extreme punitive action seems to be the first thing people instinctively call for as soon as they see a crime happen.
I agree about the obvious serious crimes like assault, conspiracy to kidnap, conspiracy to commit murder, and murder. I also feel like the lesser but still serious crimes like trespassing on government, rioting, attempted overthrow of the US government, and aiding and abetting offenses need to be punished within existing laws we have on the books. I don't think that 3-5 years under the federal guidance is too much to ask for those who participated in the riots and insurrection.

For context: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...capitol-rioters-be-charged-with-idUSKBN29E0ND
 
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