So can we talk about how garbage the idea of "reaching out" to trump supporters is?

Zythyx

Staff Catter
Staff Team
just saying, if you agree with the concepts of building a wall to keep brown people out, or that being lgbt is wrong, or that the black people fighting for their rights against police are just violent thugs, youve pretty much already decided that your humanity towards your fellow man doesnt extend towards minorities. there are republicans who just prefer conservative economics and in that case there is a chance to reach out, but once someone dives into racism it is THEIR responsibility to wake up and learn that hating people for being born is wrong. to allow them spaces or platforms is to directly put people in danger.

 

Uni

Member
I think the problem here is that we arent thinking of the same groups of people. You're talking a lot about white republicans and not even touching on the issue that I've been trying to articulate. That there are minorities who are not racist, sexist, homophobic, etc but are simply misguided due to uneducation or lack of resources. And what in trying to say is it's not right to shame them for that. Like the thread I linked earlier said there are a huge community of latino voters who dont speak english and are getting brainwashed because republican ideals are being broadcast in Spanish. And while there are good people going out and trying to educate this scared group of older Latinos. We need to fight for them too. 

I only bring up latino specifically because I am too so it's a cause I feel passionate about

 
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Jonie roo

Member
You two seem to forget one thing: from their point of view, they are decent people and they did the right thing to protect their vision of the country. To protect the civilization, their children, their jobs, their religion or whatever other reason they use. Thus, in their opinion, they have nothing to atone for and what they did wasn't a mistake but a decision they took for the good of the USA.

The most rabid and extreme supporters of Trump and the GOP in general view the 'other side' in pretty much the same way you view them : as people hell bent on destroying everything they hold dear, spouting liberal garbage and waving strange flags during 'those disgusting pride parades where people prance around the streets naked and showing off their deviant sexuality'.

They don't see you as decent people, and hurling abuse towards them will only reinforce their beliefs that the 'other side' is bad and needs to be reined in, taken out of the public place, hidden and 'healed' of their deviant ideas if possible.

Also, it seems that quite a sizeable number of people who voted for Trump cast their votes primarily due to his economic promises, and didn't gave much thought about the policies that would impact other people, nor did they really believe that he would do some of the things he said or that he did them, as they believe that the media in general conflated things to make huge story for the news. I don't think that the coal miners who voted for him because he promised to bring coal back were also clapping their hands and nodding their heads in agreement when he announced that transgender were barred from serving in the army. They probably did not gave it much thought because they were focused on his promise to get their industry to restart.

Besides, I don't think anyone is ever 100% in agreement with every policies set by whatever politician we are voting with. Not you, not me, not anyone. Not everyone who voted for Biden is 100% in agreement with everything he said he would do, but they voted for him because he was the best candidate when compared to the alternative. It's the same for many people who voted for Trump: not everyone who voted for him is 100% in agreement with everything he said or did, but they voted for him because they found Hillary or Biden to be less deserving of becoming President. There seems to be many people afraid that Biden and the Dems will bring 'socialism' to the country, which is bad, thus they voted for Trump, even if they do not like the character and many of the things he says, and their idea of what 'socialism' is can be quite vague; but socialism is the absolute Bad Thing that can happen to the country, thus they have to vote against the socialist Biden and Dems.

You can hate them because they enabled this otherworldly presidency we just lived through, but remember that they aren't a coherent block, they aren't a united front or an army united behind their dear leader, as much as the Dems aren't united, or the LGBT+ community, or the furries, or most any group for that matter. Not everyone follows for the same reason, not everyone agrees on the same thing, and not everyone also has the same priorities in the same order.
"Decent people" Really now? After all trump did this year? Fueling further hate attacks, separating parents from their children? You can't see somebody supporting Trump when that's pretty well known knowledge and still claim "decent people". You don't get it, sometimes the only way people learn are through consequences, the feeling that nobody is supporting you, that everybody is against you or telling you your wrong. If they suffer no consequences or people telling them they're wrong, what motivation do they have to change? They'll just keep spreading their bigotry, that's why the idea of being nice to them is garbage, that doesn't get them motivation to change, just will make them think they did nothing wrong
 

 

Merv

Member
just saying, if you agree with the concepts of building a wall to keep brown people out, or that being lgbt is wrong, or that the black people fighting for their rights against police are just violent thugs, youve pretty much already decided that your humanity towards your fellow man doesnt extend towards minorities. there are republicans who just prefer conservative economics and in that case there is a chance to reach out, but once someone dives into racism it is THEIR responsibility to wake up and learn that hating people for being born is wrong. to allow them spaces or platforms is to directly put people in danger.
I agree, but I'd like to point out that "conservative economics" is just racism in a suit and tie.

 

Zythyx

Staff Catter
Staff Team
That there are minorities who are not racist, sexist, homophobic, etc but are simply misguided due to uneducation or lack of resources. And what in trying to say is it's not right to shame them for that.
theres a difference between misguided and just outright conforming to views that fit one’s racist ideals that were already in place culturally. many if not all racial minorities have degrees of antiblackness in their culture. when republican talking heads insult black folks and our protests, said minorities may be being spoonfed false info, but it directly fuels into antiblackness that ALREADY is in their heads. the issue with republicans in general is that everything they do is for a bigoted reason, and they describe it as such without even trying to hide it. i find it difficult to feel sympathy for someone who can hear what trump has said about white supremacists, about immigrants, about black folks, and be okay with that in any capacity no matter how they spin it. this isnt only for white people, as there are plenty of POC who think “well, im one of the good ones! not like those thugs!” 

this is coming from the experience of a black person. being black, you really do realize antiblackness exists in every race. many other POC would rather side with their oppressors than us because of how we’re seen as lesser.  i find it unlikely anyone can be not racist and then support our current republican party. they are one in the same at this point. 

 
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alyazabirze

Member
there are republicans who just prefer conservative economics and in that case there is a chance to reach out, but once someone dives into racism it is THEIR responsibility to wake up and learn that hating people for being born is wrong.
 i feel like the number of republicans who vote purely on economic policy are countable on one hand and literally all of them are also terrible people, just not "deport the minorities" terrible people, lmao

 

Uni

Member
this is coming from the experience of a black person. being black, you really do realize antiblackness exists in every race. many other POC would rather side with their oppressors than us because of how we’re seen as lesser.  i find it unlikely anyone can be not racist and then support our current republican party. they are one in the same at this point. 
I fully acknowledge the unfortunate racism in my community. And I do my part to educate older Latinos when I can.

I still think fundamentally I'd rather educate than fling mud. But everyone has a right to be angry I just direct it into efforts that further a cause

 

Zythyx

Staff Catter
Staff Team
 i feel like the number of republicans who vote purely on economic policy are countable on one hand and literally all of them are also terrible people, just not "deport the minorities" terrible people, lmao
oh no, you are definitely correct. like merv said above; conservative economics is just racism with a suit and tie. 

I fully acknowledge the unfortunate racism in my community. And I do my part to educate older Latinos when I can.

I still think fundamentally I'd rather educate than fling mud. But everyone has a right to be angry I just direct it into efforts that further a cause
this is fair. if you wanna do that, thats your right. im just saying, in order to think republican media is viable in anyway, there’s probably some cultural bigotry that you must unlearn first. i was drowned in republican media as a kid growing up in the deep south, yet i understood that war in the middle east made no sense and that republicans were consistently racist because my black family has always been on the brunt of their attacks. 

 
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alyazabirze

Member
something probably worth mentioning in this conversation is that singling out minority groups broadly for their conservative or reactionary elements is pretty silly and lumps in a lot of people who aren't the problem: almost always, those elements are expressed by men of that minority group specifically. at least in the US, as a demographic men are pretty universally conservative than women--you'll find for example that black women are nearly monolithic in their support for progressive causes, but black men are often more like 80-20.

 
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Siddeley

Member
"Decent people" Really now? After all trump did this year? Fueling further hate attacks, separating parents from their children? You can't see somebody supporting Trump when that's pretty well known knowledge and still claim "decent people". You don't get it, sometimes the only way people learn are through consequences, the feeling that nobody is supporting you, that everybody is against you or telling you your wrong. If they suffer no consequences or people telling them they're wrong, what motivation do they have to change? They'll just keep spreading their bigotry, that's why the idea of being nice to them is garbage, that doesn't get them motivation to change, just will make them think they did nothing wrong
 
There's a reason I flat out ignore-listed Tamara a while back. Slimy whataboutism has a pretty foul aftertaste.

The only people I'll afford any leeway this late in the game are literal children. The indoctrinated teen brats that are hooting along with the noisiest crowd. Adults? Adults should understand consequences. There are consequences to all choices. Nobody owes their abuser so much as the time of day, if they aren't willing to concede it to them.

 
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Zythyx

Staff Catter
Staff Team
you'll find for example that black women are nearly monolithic in their support for progressive causes, but black men are often more like 80-20.
THIS IS HUGE. as a black trans man, toxic masculinity in the black community is rampant. and i understand what might have caused that culturally, but still its so bad from inside the black community itself. that definitely does play a huuuge part in it

 
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M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
Before throwing my two cents in on this, I just want to say I'm conservative as a preamble, though I no longer belong to Republican Party and I never voted Trump. I feel a few ways about how to treat Trump supporters, which may deviate from how some people here feel.

I feel like reaching out to people who supported Trump should be done strictly on a case by case basis with those whom you actually know will change or supported him for innocuous reasons like economic factors  and jobs returning to their particular region. Even then, there are a lot of Trump supporters who say they supported him for the "economy", but had far more unsavory and bigoted reasons for backing him.

That is why I would say you need to personally know who you are reaching out to and decide whether they're persuadable. If it's a close family or a friend you are contemplating talking to,  give in try as long they are willing to acknowledge what Trump and their support of Trump has caused. Make sure you are not the one doing too much bending; I remember after 2016 seeing a lot of my Democrat friends bending over backing to be more understanding of Trump supporters only for them to be slapped in the face and ridiculed.

It probably helps to remind yourself of the question that if Trump won a second term, would this person have your back regardless?

If the answer is no, it might not be worth it to reach out.

I have thoughts about how nationally outreach should go, but I'll probably share that later if solicited.

 
Listen. Its OK To protect yourself. Its OK to not put it upon yourself to reform others. Its OK to not want to take part in deradicalization for ANY reason, especially if that reason is for the good of your own health.

That being said, I've been...reflecting on this, and the point some have made that not a lot changes by swinging insults, is a valid point. For one, it will not change anyone's mind, and for two, are you really making YOURSELF feel any better? Is there anything to be gained from remaining in a very static position of, yes, righteous anger, but anger nonetheless. I've been seeing a lot of very hurt, very sore people just, staying on twitter or online all day being angry and feeling spite and throwing it around.

If you are going to be angry, I suggest it may be better to put those feelings to some more practical uses.

I get it. I walked away from a relationship I was extremely invested in and wanted to work out more than anything at the time, because even my most gentle efforts of "I am concerned about the content you are consuming vicariously and the exaggerated, possibly harmful opinions and delusions you are growing from that" did not go well.

But, I also made a mistake. I let the anger and hurt from that consume me for awhile. I stayed in my room, I'm still breaking out of a very vicious "Avoiding shit and being sad and angry all day because that was really awful" streak from it.

I'm going to be corny for a second and link this, reminding everyone to "Take a moment and Think of Just, Flexibility, Love, and Trust."

After you've done that...what is a better way you can deal with this? Are there people you love, who agree with you, or who aren't far gone, that you can work with? Is there something you can volunteer for? Is there someone who looks to you for information, and you could help inform them? Is there a community initiative nearby that you can help with? Would you maybe use this time to get involved in your local politics?

 
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Manibrandr Soundworks

Emerald Subscriber
When I left AltFurry and the Raiders behind in 2018, I spent a year questioning everything I knew and was told about politics, and then 6 months after that trying to reach out to Trump cultists and coax them out of it. I still carry the emotional scars from that time, as they took advantage of my empathy to try to gaslight me back into their side, and push anti-intellectual grooming onto me in the form of "Stop trying to explain things to us, you leftists are so wordy! That's why we don't take you seriously! Just call us <r-slur>!"

If they really want to redeem themselves, then they can go through the same steps I did to deprogram myself, and not one second before. I am not going to shepherd someone who refuses to walk alongside me. And I am not going to babysit the feelings of people who think that my rights and existence is up for debate.

@Tamara you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, you're pushing people into self-harm by telling them that it's okay to be around these Trump-worshipping COVID-spreading monsters because they're """decent.""" That's highly irresponsible, what's wrong with you?

 
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Tamara

Member
@Tamara you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, you're pushing people into self-harm by telling them that it's okay to be around these Trump-worshipping COVID-spreading monsters because they're """decent.""" That's highly irresponsible, what's wrong with you?
You know, when you're quoting someone or reading what someone has posted, basic decency dictates that you read every word in a sentence, and every sentence in a paragraph, and every paragraph in the whole text. Obviously, you didn't, else you wouldn't have reacted like this to what I posted, because I never said that they are decent people, I said that they think that they are decent people. Which is different, in case you cannot tell.

My exact words were:

from their point of view, they are decent people
You apparently did not read nor see the words right before the 'decent people' bit that reads 'FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW'. Which means that I was saying that this is how Trump supporters perceive themselves, how they think of themselves, how they view themselves, what they believe they are, no matter whether that is true or not.

So please, the next time you want to get angry at someone for something they wrote, please make sure that you've read the whole text and fully understood what is being said. Don't just latch onto a small bit of a long post and exclude everything else around that gives a specific meaning to said small bit, thank you very much.

 
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