So can we talk about how garbage the idea of "reaching out" to trump supporters is?

You're mocking it as triggers are terms used to refer to people who go through PTSD, it's a term that has had its meaning flipped by people who don't listen into meaning something along the lines of angry and actively hurts people who have actual triggers
Exactly this. (Though ofc PTSD is only one specific mental health issue of several that are associated with the word, but it’s the one I in particular have so I was thinking of it specifically.)

 

Tamara

Member
You're mocking it as triggers are terms used to refer to people who go through PTSD, it's a term that has had its meaning flipped by people who don't listen into meaning something along the lines of angry and actively hurts people who have actual triggers
I wasn't aware that this word had become such a mocking term. My apologies, I'll edit my post.

 
All I'm going to say about this whole business is I don't reach out to fascist, if they want to befriend me they have to drop their prejudices first that is a 110% necessary stipulation. If the extremely unlikely scenario someone was both completely politically illiterate and lived under a rock for 4+ years and thus didn't realize they were voting for a fascist we have a chance to talk but that is the one and only exception to the "trump voters can choke for all I care" rule.

Like for real anyone that knows anything about Trump deserves NOTHING but the highest contempt because at the most very minimum they were willing to aid the rise of fascism if it meant some financial gain for them. They're no better than a hitman and that's the LEAST EVIL interpretation of their actions. They are monsters that most likely will require years of deprogramming themselves and voting against their past actions before they are owed any type of comradery with me. They can eat a big sack of dicks until that point.

 

Jonie roo

Member
All I'm going to say about this whole business is I don't reach out to fascist, if they want to befriend me they have to drop their prejudices first that is a 110% necessary stipulation. If the extremely unlikely scenario someone was both completely politically illiterate and lived under a rock for 4+ years and thus didn't realize they were voting for a fascist we have a chance to talk but that is the one and only exception to the "trump voters can choke for all I care" rule.

Like for real anyone that knows anything about Trump deserves NOTHING but the highest contempt because at the most very minimum they were willing to aid the rise of fascism if it meant some financial gain for them. They're no better than a hitman and that's the LEAST EVIL interpretation of their actions. They are monsters that most likely will require years of deprogramming themselves and voting against their past actions before they are owed any type of comradery with me. They can eat a big sack of dicks until that point.
THIS! ALLLLLL OFF THIS

 

M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
Adding on to what I said earlier, I've been talking to and trying support someone who was a Trump supporter during the election and had been involved with Altfurry members at one point another furry forum. About year ago, they were saying that hate speech was free speech and raising talking points about forced multiculturalism; Islamophobia was a frequent problem with them. However, as Trump's time in office went on and he pursued anti-LGBT policies (this person is gay), they started to seem to wise up more and other forum member reached out to them to try deradicalize them. A lot of the bad influences around him were banned from the forum for hate-related offenses, which made a lot of people hopeful. Eventually, this guy decided to turn over a new leaf and said so publicly.

Things were cool and we even had some good conversations. I still didn't trust him entirely, but I was willing to give him a chance. I'm not a believer in people changing, but he was proving me wrong and I wasn't mad about that.

Then a lot of his friends returned to the forum and he recently gave me solid reason to doubt his sincerity. He is pretty much back to supporting them again as they're currently bullying transgender members on the forum and I feel foolish for believing that they changed.

So yeah, you need to think hard about giving people a second chance, particularly now when we as country have a lot business to attend to and no time for bullshit.

 

woffpls

Member
I don't think you should necessarily reach out, but debating them and trying to change their mind is definitely better than letting them stay insulated and constantly reassured.

 

Merv

Member
I don't think you should necessarily reach out, but debating them and trying to change their mind is definitely better than letting them stay insulated and constantly reassured.
There's nothing to 'debate'. They are not only wrong, they are willfully so, and gleefully hurting us and our friends. That's why we yell at them and treat them poorly.

 
There's nothing to 'debate'. They are not only wrong, they are willfully so, and gleefully hurting us and our friends. That's why we yell at them and treat them poorly.
(CW: transphobia just to be used as an example of prejudice)

The things about debating ideas is both ideas have to have some merit from the get go. If someone for example claims trans women want access to the women's washroom in order to commit assault that's just... objectively wrong. We have decades of evidence stemming from several countries around the world that all disprove that! There's no two side there's just a person that is full of shit and someone that presumably isn't. Debate is reserved for topics that DON'T have a clear answer.

Like if you're not going to have a debate with someone if ingesting rat poison is bad don't have one with someone that thinks universal healthcare would destroy the American economy. Both of those are illogical on a degree below you as a person.

EDIT: I realize I technically quoted the wrong person here but whatever the reply still makes sense lol.

 
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I should also add a second reply to note that educating =/= debating. For whatever reason people think they have to debate someone's ideas to educate them when its the truth is often the opposite. People really do benefit from being told they're wrong and that's that end of discussion (assuming you can back that up).

If people are legitimately ignorant eventually the cogs will get turning, and if they are bad faith actors they lose potential brainwashing victims by that refusal to debate them: Its a win-win.

 
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woffpls

Member
There's nothing to 'debate'. They are not only wrong, they are willfully so, and gleefully hurting us and our friends. That's why we yell at them and treat them poorly.
the ones that are bad faith arguing and are actually willingly shitty, I agree. but I think it doesn't help to ignore the countless people that have been deconverted and educated by people showing them how wrong they are and giving them something to think about other than their reactionary shit.

like a few years ago when I first got into the trans community, I used to be truscum... like the entire fucking stereotype of it, and it was terrible. I'm not like that anymore because of people arguing with me and showing me how wrong I was.

 

Merv

Member
That's nice and all but 'arguing' and 'debating' with fascists is exhausting and very often pointless. They know this, and invite otherwise well-meaning types to waste their time and stamina playing rhetorical calvinball with them because it lets them claim victory when the other party grows tired and/or fed up with their bullshit.

 

M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
That's nice and all but 'arguing' and 'debating' with fascists is exhausting and very often pointless. They know this, and invite otherwise well-meaning types to waste their time and stamina playing rhetorical calvinball with them because it lets them claim victory when the other party grows tired and/or fed up with their bullshit.
Fair and this is why deplatforming is important.

That said, if you're educated enough to dispute blatant misinformation from them, it pays to do for the people they are trying to dupe and recruit, rather than out of a sense of needing to prevail against them.

 
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Simic

Member
Asking question to the right wing and left wing can  be contradicting.  Trump supporters are just contradiction due to Trump don't do free trades with other country despite most business encourage free trades with country. LGBT freedom is important but right wing dislike social freedom but want economic freedom. Social and Economic freedom are important to have in the country. 

 

Manibrandr Soundworks

Emerald Subscriber
Fair and this is why deplatforming is important.

That said, if you're educated enough to dispute blatant misinformation from them, it pays to do for the people they are trying to dupe and recruit, rather than out of a sense of needing to prevail against them.
You can do that without the fascist in the room, so any ground you gain from debating fascists would be eclipsed by their blatant disregard for information and their constant rhetorical vandalism. You'd do much better explaining why the fascist is wrong, in an environment where fascists aren't around.

 
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Manibrandr Soundworks

Emerald Subscriber
You know, when you're quoting someone or reading what someone has posted, basic decency dictates that you read every word in a sentence, and every sentence in a paragraph, and every paragraph in the whole text. Obviously, you didn't, else you wouldn't have reacted like this to what I posted, because I never said that they are decent people, I said that they think that they are decent people. Which is different, in case you cannot tell.

My exact words were:

You apparently did not read nor see the words right before the 'decent people' bit that reads 'FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW'. Which means that I was saying that this is how Trump supporters perceive themselves, how they think of themselves, how they view themselves, what they believe they are, no matter whether that is true or not.

So please, the next time you want to get angry at someone for something they wrote, please make sure that you've read the whole text and fully understood what is being said. Don't just latch onto a small bit of a long post and exclude everything else around that gives a specific meaning to said small bit, thank you very much.
Yeah no, because that means that you think that their perception of their own decency is worth consideration when it really isn't. And you know, you did step on a trigger of mine with the way you behaved in this thread, because that's exactly how I was lead to being brainwashed into being an AltFur in the first place. The whole social pressure to accept problematic groups as part of my circle, with the stipulation that I would be intolerant and authoritarian if I didn't.

So yeah....just don't.

 
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Tamara

Member
We should certainly not accept problematic groups anywhere. We're unfortunately forced to recognize that they exist, but they should never be accepted. I think that the USA would be much better if nazi stuff and anything alike was made illegal, except in an educational environment or in an historical context where it is shown and explained how bad that kind of ideology is, like it is here in France. People have been condemned to pay heavy fines and even some prison sentences for spouting that garbage IRL or online, and I believe that those sentences have been too lenient. It was never my point to say that they should be accepted.

My point was that, when you're talking to someone and are trying to make them see the error of their ways and get them to change them, you do have to take into consideration how they see themselves. Hurling abuse at someone who is persuaded to be right will achieve nothing, except maybe make you feel good for a time, and perhaps have them hurl abuse at you back, thus reinforcing your mutual belief that 'the other side is bad'. Hurling abuse at someone who is on the fence will only push them further down the rabbit hole because it will be used against you and your ideas with the classical argument of 'see how they treat you? They're throwing insults because they have no real argument, which means we are right'.

Again, as I said in a previous post, if you don't want to interact with them, if you don't think they're worth anything, then don't. It's better not to interact with those people than to throw insults at them, as much as you think they deserve it, and hope that they'll magically change because they've been insulted. Let's be real, that will never happen, no one has ever really changed their mind because they've been insulted, and it's even less likely to happen today. And anyone who says that you have to reach out should just shut it and do the reaching out themselves.

 

M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
You can do that without the fascist in the room, so any ground you gain from debating fascists would be eclipsed by their blatant disregard for information and their constant rhetorical vandalism. You'd do much better explaining why the fascist is wrong, in an environment where fascists aren't around.
Fair point, but more often than not, I don't back down and I win. I also think there is argument to be made for getting in their faces about their bullshit, bigotry, and stupidity too. Something I don't see anti-fascists do enough is make the experience uncomfortable for fascists.

 
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Manibrandr Soundworks

Emerald Subscriber
We should certainly not accept problematic groups anywhere. We're unfortunately forced to recognize that they exist, but they should never be accepted. I think that the USA would be much better if nazi stuff and anything alike was made illegal, except in an educational environment or in an historical context where it is shown and explained how bad that kind of ideology is, like it is here in France. People have been condemned to pay heavy fines and even some prison sentences for spouting that garbage IRL or online, and I believe that those sentences have been too lenient. It was never my point to say that they should be accepted.

My point was that, when you're talking to someone and are trying to make them see the error of their ways and get them to change them, you do have to take into consideration how they see themselves. Hurling abuse at someone who is persuaded to be right will achieve nothing, except maybe make you feel good for a time, and perhaps have them hurl abuse at you back, thus reinforcing your mutual belief that 'the other side is bad'. Hurling abuse at someone who is on the fence will only push them further down the rabbit hole because it will be used against you and your ideas with the classical argument of 'see how they treat you? They're throwing insults because they have no real argument, which means we are right'.

Again, as I said in a previous post, if you don't want to interact with them, if you don't think they're worth anything, then don't. It's better not to interact with those people than to throw insults at them, as much as you think they deserve it, and hope that they'll magically change because they've been insulted. Let's be real, that will never happen, no one has ever really changed their mind because they've been insulted, and it's even less likely to happen today. And anyone who says that you have to reach out should just shut it and do the reaching out themselves.
A few points:

  • If the sentence is a fine, then the law is only there to bind poor people. It's not good enough.
  • Fascists aren't there to debate, they're there to proselytize. Even debating them will be beneficial to them, because fascists don't care about facts, they care about consolidating power, and being in debates is the ultimate fascist booty call.
  • There are no 2 sides, there are people who want eliminate a class of people, and people who try to stop them. Fascists aren't on the same level of morality or validity as antifascist and BLM activists, and they never will be, because fascist beliefs are invalid.
  • They absolutely need to be verbally dumpstered at every turn, because anything softer is mollycoddling and enabling them. Why is anyone obliged to be nice to people who wants them dead? They can think they have the upper hand, but that's just their narrative, and their feelings absolutely do not matter.
  • That's not why I have a problem with you, my problem is the level of tone-policing, and the attempt to groom people into being 100% erudite with fascists. As if giving them a space to spread their poison has no material real life consequences, as if their visibility doesn't have the effect of normalizing bigoted attitudes.
  • You make a lot of assumptions about people who have fallen into the fascist rabbit hole, when you have someone who literally did just that and is telling you that you're full of shit.

Fair point, but more often than not, I don't back down and I win. I also think there is argument to be made for getting in their faces about their bullshit, bigotry, and stupidity too. Something I don't see anti-fascists do enough is make the experience uncomfortable for fascists.
>win

What are you actually winning when you waste your energy getting into a shouting match with fascists outside the smug morally narcissistic satisfaction of winning a debate? Do you honestly think that fascists evaporate into thin air or instantly convert into a leftist once you "win" a debate with them? All you're accomplishing is telling a fascist that their rhetoric needs to be better, while materially doing nothing to lessen the harmful impact their words and action have towards the surrounding community. With that kind of attitude, you'll never become nothing more than controlled opposition for fascists, a morally narcissistic scratching posts for budding fascists to sharpen their rhetorical weapons on.

You want to actually win? Take away their platforms and funding, materially block them from being able to spread their hateful poison. Wake people up to the ills of capitalism and practice mutual aid, get people to adopt anti-corporatist and anti-kyriarchy principles and practices, and you can't do that as well when you have a fascist constantly trying to sabotage your efforts with their rhetorics.

 

M1L35 M4R54L15

New Member
A few points:

  • If the sentence is a fine, then the law is only there to bind poor people. It's not good enough.
  • Fascists aren't there to debate, they're there to proselytize. Even debating them will be beneficial to them, because fascists don't care about facts, they care about consolidating power, and being in debates is the ultimate fascist booty call.
  • There are no 2 sides, there are people who want eliminate a class of people, and people who try to stop them. Fascists aren't on the same level of morality or validity as antifascist and BLM activists, and they never will be, because fascist beliefs are invalid.
  • They absolutely need to be verbally dumpstered at every turn, because anything softer is mollycoddling and enabling them. Why is anyone obliged to be nice to people who wants them dead? They can think they have the upper hand, but that's just their narrative, and their feelings absolutely do not matter.
  • That's not why I have a problem with you, my problem is the level of tone-policing, and the attempt to groom people into being 100% erudite with fascists. As if giving them a space to spread their poison has no material real life consequences, as if their visibility doesn't have the effect of normalizing bigoted attitudes.
  • You make a lot of assumptions about people who have fallen into the fascist rabbit hole, when you have someone who literally did just that and is telling you that you're full of shit.

>win

What are you actually winning when you waste your energy getting into a shouting match with fascists outside the smug morally narcissistic satisfaction of winning a debate? Do you honestly think that fascists evaporate into thin air or instantly convert into a leftist once you "win" a debate with them? All you're accomplishing is telling a fascist that their rhetoric needs to be better, while materially doing nothing to lessen the harmful impact their words and action have towards the surrounding community. With that kind of attitude, you'll never become nothing more than controlled opposition for fascists, a morally narcissistic scratching posts for budding fascists to sharpen their rhetorical weapons on.

You want to actually win? Take away their platforms and funding, materially block them from being able to spread their hateful poison. Wake people up to the ills of capitalism and practice mutual aid, get people to adopt anti-corporatist and anti-kyriarchy principles and practices, and you can't do that as well when you have a fascist constantly trying to sabotage your efforts with their rhetorics.
For starters, when one speaks, others often do too. You provide arguments that those others can use to dispel the misinformation that the bad actors are spreading. You can embarrass the bad actors by exposing the ridiculous lies they are spreading while also showing other on the platform that they are not alone and don't to need to stay silent.

Deplatforming and defunding are great, but we all know platforms in the fandom that will host racists and fascists with lax enforcement against hate speech. A lot of those platforms tend to be too large to expect people to walk off them.

In those cases where deplatforming and defunding are an option, if the racist and fascist users can fight for their ideologies, then the counterbalance to them needs to ready to do the same with a few minutes from their day.

Growing up as a conservative, I was taught that if you don't show up to the fight, you lose the fight.

People need to take that lesson to heart.

 
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Siddeley

Member
A few points:

  • If the sentence is a fine, then the law is only there to bind poor people. It's not good enough.
  • Fascists aren't there to debate, they're there to proselytize. Even debating them will be beneficial to them, because fascists don't care about facts, they care about consolidating power, and being in debates is the ultimate fascist booty call.
  • There are no 2 sides, there are people who want eliminate a class of people, and people who try to stop them. Fascists aren't on the same level of morality or validity as antifascist and BLM activists, and they never will be, because fascist beliefs are invalid.
  • They absolutely need to be verbally dumpstered at every turn, because anything softer is mollycoddling and enabling them. Why is anyone obliged to be nice to people who wants them dead? They can think they have the upper hand, but that's just their narrative, and their feelings absolutely do not matter.
  • That's not why I have a problem with you, my problem is the level of tone-policing, and the attempt to groom people into being 100% erudite with fascists. As if giving them a space to spread their poison has no material real life consequences, as if their visibility doesn't have the effect of normalizing bigoted attitudes.
  • You make a lot of assumptions about people who have fallen into the fascist rabbit hole, when you have someone who literally did just that and is telling you that you're full of shit.

>win

What are you actually winning when you waste your energy getting into a shouting match with fascists outside the smug morally narcissistic satisfaction of winning a debate? Do you honestly think that fascists evaporate into thin air or instantly convert into a leftist once you "win" a debate with them? All you're accomplishing is telling a fascist that their rhetoric needs to be better, while materially doing nothing to lessen the harmful impact their words and action have towards the surrounding community. With that kind of attitude, you'll never become nothing more than controlled opposition for fascists, a morally narcissistic scratching posts for budding fascists to sharpen their rhetorical weapons on.

You want to actually win? Take away their platforms and funding, materially block them from being able to spread their hateful poison. Wake people up to the ills of capitalism and practice mutual aid, get people to adopt anti-corporatist and anti-kyriarchy principles and practices, and you can't do that as well when you have a fascist constantly trying to sabotage your efforts with their rhetorics.
Considering that Tamara locked their own thread that they started after being browbeaten in this one... there's no good faith to be had there, Frey.